Codebusters C

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jimmy-bond
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby jimmy-bond » February 4th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Anonymous15 wrote:Hey guys!

Do you know what the difference between K1, K2, and random alphabets are? I can't find a good definition online.

Also, for patristocrats, do you know what method is best to use? I know there are five listed on the wiki for monoalphabetic ciphers, but sometimes they don't always work when the spacings are messed up. For example, as has been said on this thread before, letter frequencies don't always work because the text can be so short.

Thanks!

Second question: just pray that it's a K1 or K2. If it isn't, well have you and your partners try every single letter combination within reason, because that's what you'll be doing until time runs out.
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby linzhiyan » February 8th, 2019, 8:37 pm

Is it highly likely to actually complete the test? I went to an invitational last week, and we only finished 4 ciphers... (timed, atbash, affine, hill). We were really close to finishing another aristocrat, and I was about halfway through with the vigenere cipher, but...
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Name » February 8th, 2019, 8:54 pm

linzhiyan wrote:Is it highly likely to actually complete the test? I went to an invitational last week, and we only finished 4 ciphers... (timed, atbash, affine, hill). We were really close to finishing another aristocrat, and I was about halfway through with the vigenere cipher, but...


It's feasible but not likely... Depends on the length/difficulty though. The closest I got was on a 19 question test, we solved 15 and barely missed the 16th (probably would've gotten with a extra couple minutes).
Some tests I've seen had ridiculously long ciphers that were nearly impossible to solve in a short amount of time. I'm gonna assume this question means standard code tests I see the most common (made with toebes with letter frequencies, realitivly short quotes and under 20 questions)
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby linzhiyan » February 8th, 2019, 9:06 pm

Name wrote:
linzhiyan wrote:Is it highly likely to actually complete the test? I went to an invitational last week, and we only finished 4 ciphers... (timed, atbash, affine, hill). We were really close to finishing another aristocrat, and I was about halfway through with the vigenere cipher, but...


It's feasible but not likely... Depends on the length/difficulty though. The closest I got was on a 19 question test, we solved 15 and barely missed the 16th (probably would've gotten with a extra couple minutes).
Some tests I've seen had ridiculously long ciphers that were nearly impossible to solve in a short amount of time. I'm gonna assume this question means standard code tests I see the most common (made with toebes with letter frequencies, realitivly short quotes and under 20 questions)

If it was made with toebes, things would have been easier, but nope... there were no frequency tables per code and the ciphers were super long, even though there were only like 7-8. Idk... after going to this invitational, this event feels more impossible than ever. It may also be how we’re splitted with the ciphers. There’s one person that changed between the invitational from last week and regionals, so we’re giving the changing person aristocrats/patristocrats because those only require practice. Another person is doing hill and then helping with the aristocrats/patristocrats because we’re super bad at them. I’m doing everything else. Is that too unrealistic...??
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby jimmy-bond » February 8th, 2019, 9:20 pm

Name wrote:
linzhiyan wrote:Is it highly likely to actually complete the test? I went to an invitational last week, and we only finished 4 ciphers... (timed, atbash, affine, hill). We were really close to finishing another aristocrat, and I was about halfway through with the vigenere cipher, but...


It's feasible but not likely... Depends on the length/difficulty though. The closest I got was on a 19 question test, we solved 15 and barely missed the 16th (probably would've gotten with a extra couple minutes).
Some tests I've seen had ridiculously long ciphers that were nearly impossible to solve in a short amount of time. I'm gonna assume this question means standard code tests I see the most common (made with toebes with letter frequencies, realitivly short quotes and under 20 questions)

Agreed. I've only done code at one invitational and as a part of a duo. The test was 11 questions including the timed and we only missed 2 questions, because neither of us studied Baconian variants or Hill cipher decryption matrix as we were thrown in the week before. The 1st place team got a perfect score, showing that some tests are possible.

However, other tests are just too long. I attempted the Kraemer test with our projected state team, which had something like 22 questions, and we missed around 6 of them due to time. It just depends on the makers, but 20 questions or less is definitely possible with a team of three who has been studying for at least a month
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby hippo9 » February 13th, 2019, 3:35 pm

linzhiyan wrote:
Name wrote:
linzhiyan wrote:Is it highly likely to actually complete the test? I went to an invitational last week, and we only finished 4 ciphers... (timed, atbash, affine, hill). We were really close to finishing another aristocrat, and I was about halfway through with the vigenere cipher, but...


It's feasible but not likely... Depends on the length/difficulty though. The closest I got was on a 19 question test, we solved 15 and barely missed the 16th (probably would've gotten with a extra couple minutes).
Some tests I've seen had ridiculously long ciphers that were nearly impossible to solve in a short amount of time. I'm gonna assume this question means standard code tests I see the most common (made with toebes with letter frequencies, realitivly short quotes and under 20 questions)

If it was made with toebes, things would have been easier, but nope... there were no frequency tables per code and the ciphers were super long, even though there were only like 7-8. Idk... after going to this invitational, this event feels more impossible than ever. It may also be how we’re splitted with the ciphers. There’s one person that changed between the invitational from last week and regionals, so we’re giving the changing person aristocrats/patristocrats because those only require practice. Another person is doing hill and then helping with the aristocrats/patristocrats because we’re super bad at them. I’m doing everything else. Is that too unrealistic...??

Basically, the timing of the event varies greatly on the specific test. However, keep in mind longer and harder tests are harder for everyone else too.
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Name » February 13th, 2019, 4:16 pm

My personal opinion on code tests:
The longer the test is, the better. Code tests shouldn't really be finishable in the 50 min alotted, if they are, placements are reliant on time bonus/not screwing up questions alone, not on the overall skill level. (we finished a 7 question test in around 20 min with a 2 min something solve and lost because we screwed up transferring a question to the answer section. If we had the opportunity to continue solving questions and getting points to the end, the results might have been different. The whole test was also only math besides the time, so that any team with minimal practice could've perfect scored the test)
They should cover everything on the rules at least once and emphasize the aristocrats and have a few patristocrats/xeno to seperate the top teams. Depending on difficulty there should be at least 15 questions, preferably more.

Also having ample room to work with is also important. Personally I feel like toebes wastes alotta space that can be used to provide more room (like use the vignere format) for aristo/patristo/xeno.

Questions should also not be too long. For the monoalphabetic substitutions, on toebes the cipher shouldn't exceed 3-4 lines. After that, the cipher becomes more of filling in quickly instead of recognzing patterns and words.

They should also be solvable... i've seen tests where ciphers were nearly impossible to solve. If nobody solves anything, that's not a good thing no matter how much you enjoy seeing everyone suffer.

In terms of letter frequencies or whatever, I don't really care too much if they provide frequency or not. Personally I don't think it's a bad idea to omit them on at least some aristocrats or whatever just to test you can live without them. Providing K1/K2 i'm also neutral about, although providing keyword is a bit too much infomation given away.

Anyways sorry for the long post, i've just seen some tests that I wasn't particularly a fan of. Basically use toebes, don't make anything ridiculously impossible/long, and have a good mix of questions, and you should be fine.
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby linzhiyan » February 13th, 2019, 7:58 pm

Name wrote:Anyways sorry for the long post, i've just seen some tests that I wasn't particularly a fan of. Basically use toebes, don't make anything ridiculously impossible/long, and have a good mix of questions, and you should be fine.

Hmm... This seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Warrensburg test was like... (Besides the fact that they had a wide variety of codes- 2 aristocrats, 1 affine, 1 atbash, 1 caesar, 1 vigenere, and 2 hills).
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Name » February 13th, 2019, 8:29 pm

linzhiyan wrote:
Name wrote:Anyways sorry for the long post, i've just seen some tests that I wasn't particularly a fan of. Basically use toebes, don't make anything ridiculously impossible/long, and have a good mix of questions, and you should be fine.

Hmm... This seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Warrensburg test was like... (Besides the fact that they had a wide variety of codes- 2 aristocrats, 1 affine, 1 atbash, 1 caesar, 1 vigenere, and 2 hills).


That's not even a variety... No patristocrats or xenocrypts or bacon
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby linzhiyan » February 14th, 2019, 8:58 am

Name wrote:
linzhiyan wrote:
Name wrote:Anyways sorry for the long post, i've just seen some tests that I wasn't particularly a fan of. Basically use toebes, don't make anything ridiculously impossible/long, and have a good mix of questions, and you should be fine.

Hmm... This seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Warrensburg test was like... (Besides the fact that they had a wide variety of codes- 2 aristocrats, 1 affine, 1 atbash, 1 caesar, 1 vigenere, and 2 hills).


That's not even a variety... No patristocrats or xenocrypts or bacon

^exactly
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Vortexx » February 19th, 2019, 5:27 am

linzhiyan wrote:
Name wrote:
linzhiyan wrote:Hmm... This seems to be exactly the opposite of what the Warrensburg test was like... (Besides the fact that they had a wide variety of codes- 2 aristocrats, 1 affine, 1 atbash, 1 caesar, 1 vigenere, and 2 hills).


That's not even a variety... No patristocrats or xenocrypts or bacon

^exactly


At an invitational, there was like 12 aristocrats/patristocrats on there. Needless to say, we didn't finish the test.
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby TheWood » February 20th, 2019, 2:46 pm

Do you guys have any tips for solving the Spanish question? Nobody on my team is a native speaker and out of the three people on the team for code we only have one taking spanish. Additionally, how do you guys use the four function calculator? I feel like whenever I use it I’m prone to mistakes.I only use the calculator for RSA and even then I avoid it if the numbers are small enough. I appreciate any advice y’all can give me!
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Re: Codebusters C

Postby dragonfruit35 » February 20th, 2019, 9:26 pm

TheWood wrote:Do you guys have any tips for solving the Spanish question? Nobody on my team is a native speaker and out of the three people on the team for code we only have one taking spanish. Additionally, how do you guys use the four function calculator? I feel like whenever I use it I’m prone to mistakes.I only use the calculator for RSA and even then I avoid it if the numbers are small enough. I appreciate any advice y’all can give me!


For xenocrypts, memorize the letter frequency order (EAOSRN, and E and A are very close in frequency, unlike in English, where E is by far the most common letter). I usually start by looking for some of the smaller words (el, la, que, de, etc), then seeing if any of the longer words start to come together. I’m not a native Spanish speaker, but I did take 3 years of Spanish, and this strategy seems to work alright for me. Hope it helps :D

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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Anonymous15 » February 20th, 2019, 10:00 pm

What does toebes mean?

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Re: Codebusters C

Postby Vortexx » February 20th, 2019, 10:03 pm

Anonymous15 wrote:What does toebes mean?


its a website that you can use to make codes.
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