2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by builderguy135 » June 6th, 2019, 7:32 am

kate! wrote:
IvanGe wrote:
kate! wrote: I'd say not so much for New York div B, as most years it isn't too competitive and there's always a dominant school. But for div C that's probably how it works considering the 3 schools that are all at the same level.
although non-competitive states still can produce competitive schools, i.e. community middle school. don't forget that
Yeah I definitely agree. A lot of factors go into producing competitive schools, not just state competitiveness.
Honestly the only reason we got competitive is because of a few coaches that really motivated and started the team like 10+ years ago

Edit: oof it's been like 15 years
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by kdy16Dad » June 7th, 2019, 8:26 am

SONica wrote:
What you're saying is Churchill/Kennedy rivalry actually helped them to become a stronger team at national. What an interesting thought!
Yes, had to. Being competitive with a top 5 team pretty much means that the challenger also has to be at the same level. What was surprising during the season was that very few were saying that Churchill could reclaim the spot from Kennedy this year. However, Norcal states showed how close they were and how strongly they rebounded this year. It is a strange situation in California where each of the B teams is under threat of not making it to Nats - and these are top 3 (Norcal) and top 10 (Socal) teams as of now.

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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » June 7th, 2019, 8:33 am

kdy16Dad wrote:
SONica wrote:
What you're saying is Churchill/Kennedy rivalry actually helped them to become a stronger team at national. What an interesting thought!
Yes, had to. Being competitive with a top 5 team pretty much means that the challenger also has to be at the same level. What was surprising during the season was that very few were saying that Churchill could reclaim the spot from Kennedy this year. However, Norcal states showed how close they were and how strongly they rebounded this year. It is a strange situation in California where each of the B teams is under threat of not making it to Nats - and these are top 3 (Norcal) and top 10 (Socal) teams as of now.
I think a lot of people (falsely) assumed that Churchill was not a national top-10 caliber team this year, and that Kennedy being close to them meant that Kennedy wasn't good enough to beat both Solon and Community. As we've seen, Churchill was simply a very good team.
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by Umaroth » June 7th, 2019, 9:23 am

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
kdy16Dad wrote:
SONica wrote:
What you're saying is Churchill/Kennedy rivalry actually helped them to become a stronger team at national. What an interesting thought!
Yes, had to. Being competitive with a top 5 team pretty much means that the challenger also has to be at the same level. What was surprising during the season was that very few were saying that Churchill could reclaim the spot from Kennedy this year. However, Norcal states showed how close they were and how strongly they rebounded this year. It is a strange situation in California where each of the B teams is under threat of not making it to Nats - and these are top 3 (Norcal) and top 10 (Socal) teams as of now.
I think a lot of people (falsely) assumed that Churchill was not a national top-10 caliber team this year, and that Kennedy being close to them meant that Kennedy wasn't good enough to beat both Solon and Community. As we've seen, Churchill was simply a very good team.
Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by TheCrazyChemist » June 7th, 2019, 9:30 am

Umaroth wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
kdy16Dad wrote:
Yes, had to. Being competitive with a top 5 team pretty much means that the challenger also has to be at the same level. What was surprising during the season was that very few were saying that Churchill could reclaim the spot from Kennedy this year. However, Norcal states showed how close they were and how strongly they rebounded this year. It is a strange situation in California where each of the B teams is under threat of not making it to Nats - and these are top 3 (Norcal) and top 10 (Socal) teams as of now.
I think a lot of people (falsely) assumed that Churchill was not a national top-10 caliber team this year, and that Kennedy being close to them meant that Kennedy wasn't good enough to beat both Solon and Community. As we've seen, Churchill was simply a very good team.
Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
Or West Coast teams came east for a tournament, like Rustin.

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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by sciolyperson1 » June 7th, 2019, 10:10 am

Umaroth wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
kdy16Dad wrote:
Yes, had to. Being competitive with a top 5 team pretty much means that the challenger also has to be at the same level. What was surprising during the season was that very few were saying that Churchill could reclaim the spot from Kennedy this year. However, Norcal states showed how close they were and how strongly they rebounded this year. It is a strange situation in California where each of the B teams is under threat of not making it to Nats - and these are top 3 (Norcal) and top 10 (Socal) teams as of now.
I think a lot of people (falsely) assumed that Churchill was not a national top-10 caliber team this year, and that Kennedy being close to them meant that Kennedy wasn't good enough to beat both Solon and Community. As we've seen, Churchill was simply a very good team.
Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)

I tend to compare us beating Springhouse at every competition to Kennedy beating Kraemer at every competition - usually by a large amount, sometimes just under double Kennedy's/our points. However, the balance seems to have changed at the end - we certainly didn't fo as well as expected, and compared to Springhouse, we weren't far ahead (3rd and 7th). However, Kennedy seemed to have a really good day, halving Kraemers score easily.
So yes, I agree - we really do tend to underestimate CA teams, but usually we only underestimate NorCal teams. Socal teams tend to stay around the same place - 6th to 10th, and beyond that, a bad day or good day determines how well they do in that range.
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by waffletree » June 7th, 2019, 10:58 am

TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Umaroth wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote: I think a lot of people (falsely) assumed that Churchill was not a national top-10 caliber team this year, and that Kennedy being close to them meant that Kennedy wasn't good enough to beat both Solon and Community. As we've seen, Churchill was simply a very good team.
Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
Or West Coast teams came east for a tournament, like Rustin.
It's hard for a lot of teams to come east because of how expensive it is, the 7 hour flight from cali, the time difference, just for an invitational - especially if the team needs to spend a lot of money to go to nationals the same year.
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by sciolyperson1 » June 7th, 2019, 11:23 am

waffletree wrote:
TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Umaroth wrote: Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
Or West Coast teams came east for a tournament, like Rustin.
It's hard for a lot of teams to come east because of how expensive it is, the 7 hour flight from cali, the time difference, just for an invitational - especially if the team needs to spend a lot of money to go to nationals the same year.
Ahem troy lol
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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by GoldenKnight1 » June 7th, 2019, 11:31 am

waffletree wrote:
TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Umaroth wrote: Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
Or West Coast teams came east for a tournament, like Rustin.
It's hard for a lot of teams to come east because of how expensive it is, the 7 hour flight from cali, the time difference, just for an invitational - especially if the team needs to spend a lot of money to go to nationals the same year.
Your reasons for saying it is hard is not limited to teams coming East. The flight and expense are still issues. Shifting time zones I have experienced being hard, in different ways, not matter which way you are traveling. In fact those difficulties were one of the main reasons we went to the Golden Gate invitational. As an East coast team we wanted to see what a 2 hour change would do. It was not insignificant.

Now with Nationals again being on the East coast I think it would be a great idea to have some West coast teams come out to either the Rustin or LISO invitational. Regarding Rustin's I would be happy to help make sure that a West coast team has all the support they need to have a great time coming to our invitationals.

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Re: 2019 National Tournament: Cornell University

Post by TheCrazyChemist » June 7th, 2019, 1:16 pm

waffletree wrote:
TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Umaroth wrote: Most people tend to underestimate California teams simply because we never really compete against any of the east coast teams. The only time before nationals that either Kennedy or we competed with teams outside of California/Hawaii was when we went to UT Invitational, and even that doesn't serve as a good benchmark because it is so early in the season. Churchill is still a strong team; as already stated, they rebounded quickly after last year's loss. Both Californias are going to look quite interesting in the coming years with their respective arms races in Division B. Perhaps we could get some better predictions if east coast teams came west for a tournament? (Shameless plug for Kraemer Invitational 2020 :P)
Or West Coast teams came east for a tournament, like Rustin.
It's hard for a lot of teams to come east because of how expensive it is, the 7 hour flight from cali, the time difference, just for an invitational - especially if the team needs to spend a lot of money to go to nationals the same year.
Those difficulties apply to East Coast teams as well. It's still the same amount of time for a flight to California. The time gets shifted back, which can also be difficult, and the expenses apply to East Coast teams as well. (Also, maybe this is just me, but last time I went to California, everything there was more expensive than the East Coast's variant.

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