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Re: Politics

Post by raytay » June 1st, 2020, 6:22 pm

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 5:39 pm
raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 4:08 pm
I want to move to Canada. The World War II Memorial and Lincoln Memorial were both vandalized during protests. It makes me sick
Wanted to respond here rather than in YDRC... but if you are more concerned about the memorials than the actual lives that are being lost or endangered AS I POST THIS because of excessive police brutality, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
I’m not saying I’m more concerned about the memorials than people dying. I’m sorry that’s how it came across. I think that all this mess happening is awful and that it needs to stop. Heck, even George Floyd’s brother believes that all of the violence needs to stop because it’s not going to bring him back. My comment was mostly just me saying that I’m done with all this mess that’s happening. It all makes me want to cry, scream, and punch walls. Yes, I know I can do things, but I don’t feel like 1) I’m capable enough 2) I’m strong enough and 3) people would listen to what I have to say (I say this because they don’t already). Another reason for this comment is because I remember seeing veterans just break down at the WWII memorial when I went to DC on a class trip in 8th grade. It breaks my heart that people are dying due to police brutality and cops with malicious intent when there are so many good cops in the world (for example, my third grade teacher’s husband). It also breaks my heart to see many who died in the past and did nothing wrong get disrespected by protesters. That’s all I’m saying.
EDIT: typo
Last edited by raytay on June 1st, 2020, 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics

Post by SilverBreeze » June 1st, 2020, 6:23 pm

I keep trying to find a balance between having discussions we need to have and not giving them the publicity they're trying to get. It's important to talk about these things instead of sweeping them under the rug, but we're also giving them exactly what they want (well, some of them. I'm sure there are at least a few that have good intentions but are misguided).
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Re: Politics

Post by TheChiScientist » June 1st, 2020, 7:05 pm

As a person of color the current movement strikes strongly with me. While I do not endorse the violence that is occurring I would say that to a degree it is necessary. Many people of color are tired of the same thing happening. Over and over and OVER. America revolted and resorted to violence only because the British failed to listen after multiple incidents. I would say that the American government is doing the same thing... A revolution is coming. How far it goes depends on the will of the people to bring change. I will stand for what is right and I hope many of you will stand along side me and all other people of color when that time comes.
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Re: Politics

Post by Froggie » June 1st, 2020, 8:49 pm

raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 6:22 pm
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 5:39 pm
raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 4:08 pm
I want to move to Canada. The World War II Memorial and Lincoln Memorial were both vandalized during protests. It makes me sick
Wanted to respond here rather than in YDRC... but if you are more concerned about the memorials than the actual lives that are being lost or endangered AS I POST THIS because of excessive police brutality, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
I’m not saying I’m more concerned about the memorials than people dying. I’m sorry that’s how it came across. I think that all this mess happening is awful and that it needs to stop. Heck, even George Floyd’s brother believes that all of the violence needs to stop because it’s not going to bring him back. My comment was mostly just me saying that I’m done with all this mess that’s happening. It all makes me want to cry, scream, and punch walls. Yes, I know I can do things, but I don’t feel like 1) I’m capable enough 2) I’m strong enough and 3) people would listen to what I have to say (I say this because they don’t already). Another reason for this comment is because I remember seeing veterans just break down at the WWII memorial when I went to DC on a class trip in 8th grade. It breaks my heart that people are dying due to police brutality and cops with malicious intent when there are so many good cops in the world (for example, my third grade teacher’s husband). It also breaks my heart to see many who died in the past and did nothing wrong get disrespected by protesters. That’s all I’m saying.
EDIT: typo
Adding on to this because we had a small conversation about this last night on IRC:
I think that the protests happening across the country right now are definitely necessary. It helps people become aware of the problems our society has and it pressures people who have the power to take action. What I don't think is necessary is the looting, vandalism, arson, etc, etc that's occurring amidst the protesting. They really don't help, and they can even take away from the peaceful protesting because it paints the protestors in a bad light. It also hurts innocent people like shopowners who are already suffering because of the virus.
All of this is to say that I agree with raytay wholeheartedly; obviously, people dying is more concerning than damaged memorials. But the violence is counterproductive.
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Re: Politics

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » June 2nd, 2020, 7:07 am

Froggie wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 8:49 pm
raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 6:22 pm
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 5:39 pm


Wanted to respond here rather than in YDRC... but if you are more concerned about the memorials than the actual lives that are being lost or endangered AS I POST THIS because of excessive police brutality, you need to re-evaluate your priorities.
I’m not saying I’m more concerned about the memorials than people dying. I’m sorry that’s how it came across. I think that all this mess happening is awful and that it needs to stop. Heck, even George Floyd’s brother believes that all of the violence needs to stop because it’s not going to bring him back. My comment was mostly just me saying that I’m done with all this mess that’s happening. It all makes me want to cry, scream, and punch walls. Yes, I know I can do things, but I don’t feel like 1) I’m capable enough 2) I’m strong enough and 3) people would listen to what I have to say (I say this because they don’t already). Another reason for this comment is because I remember seeing veterans just break down at the WWII memorial when I went to DC on a class trip in 8th grade. It breaks my heart that people are dying due to police brutality and cops with malicious intent when there are so many good cops in the world (for example, my third grade teacher’s husband). It also breaks my heart to see many who died in the past and did nothing wrong get disrespected by protesters. That’s all I’m saying.
EDIT: typo
Adding on to this because we had a small conversation about this last night on IRC:
I think that the protests happening across the country right now are definitely necessary. It helps people become aware of the problems our society has and it pressures people who have the power to take action. What I don't think is necessary is the looting, vandalism, arson, etc, etc that's occurring amidst the protesting. They really don't help, and they can even take away from the peaceful protesting because it paints the protestors in a bad light. It also hurts innocent people like shopowners who are already suffering because of the virus.
All of this is to say that I agree with raytay wholeheartedly; obviously, people dying is more concerning than damaged memorials. But the violence is counterproductive.
Some points about the vandalism et al:
  1. These incidents are far outnumbered by the incidents where police are using disproportionate amounts of force against peaceful protesters
  2. The amount of vandalism incidents that are being caused by white supremacists, anarchists, and undercover cops attempting to paint the protesters in a bad light is not negligible
  3. Much of the violence is caused by police failing to de-escalate the situation. See this article about how responding by force does not work, yet police insist on doing it anyway
I get the desire to discourage vandalism and violence. But everyone must understand that focusing on that is distracting from the main issue at hand. There are institutional problems with police forces and leadership in this country, and unless people take a stand, those problems will never change. The focus on violence, if any, needs to be on what police are doing to escalate the conflict, rather than what civilians are doing in response.
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Re: Politics

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » June 2nd, 2020, 7:16 am

Booknerd wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 6:11 pm
raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 4:08 pm
I want to move to Canada. The World War II Memorial and Lincoln Memorial were both vandalized during protests. It makes me sick
I feel like this has become less about the George Floyd incident, and more about people trying to assert dominance over the government. People are going way too far. If people truly wanted to represent George Floyd, it wouldn't mean having to loot every single store in sight and burning police cars. People are threatening the well-being of others (and themselves) by ignoring safety measures (remember Corona? It's still here) and harming people who are not Derek Chauvin. If we've learned anything from this country's history, it's that violence doesn't solve anything. Remember MLK? He used peace, not violence. People keep on associating an individual with a group, and causing trouble to a group of people who have not done anything wrong. Police officers in Seattle are under attack when they had no relationship or involvement in what Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis did. If people were really mad at the incident, they shouldn't be blaming officers who didn't do anything. Minneapolis is not NYC, Chicago, Seattle, or any other city. Nor is Derek Chauvin that friendly police officer who has devoted their lives to protect you. Please, stop.

I think that human beings should learn from past mistakes. What I think is one of the biggest mistakes a person can ever make is to repeat a mistake and never learn from it. We should learn from history (schools teach history class for a reason), not repeat it. We've realized that violence today will only lead to consequences tomorrow. And now, when the country is more fragile than ever before, it does not help to be wrecking stores and hurting law enforcement. People are very unstable: financially, physically, and mentally, after the rough few months we've had. Seeing what happened to George Floyd is very disturbing to see, but we shouldn't go about vandalizing because of it. If we truly cared, we wouldn't be causing more trouble. It doesn't help anyone that rioters call themselves protesters. Why are we fighting instead of helping? There's no point in causing hurt when we can help the people around us.

There's a difference between a protest and a riot. A difference that people aren't seeing. Please, have some good morals. If this is what the 21st century is all about, I don't want to live in it anymore.

With a global pandemic sweeping the country, and riots on every street, we human beings are going to be the end of ourselves if we don't stop ourselves now. If we truly want to make this world a better place, we shouldn't be blaming people who cause problems, but recognizing those who try to solve them.

The last thing any human being could do during this time is help, not hurt. Please.

[end of Booknerd's speech]
I will not fault you because I know firsthand that education in middle school and high school can be heavily slanted. But while MLK advocated peace, there were a lot of violent riots. And we remember the protagonists as the rioters, not those fighting against them. The Stonewall riots directly led to greater LGBTQ rights. We now remember those rioters as protagonists too. It is sad that things have to come to violence rather than those in leadership doing their jobs, but riots have and will continue to be vehicles of progress when all else fails.

TL;DR don't say, "it's sad that people are dying, but please don't riot". Rather, "it's sad that people are at the point of rioting, but people need to stop dying at the hands of officers and a corrupt system that supports them".

EDIT: I would like to clarify that while I feel very strongly about this topic and am making it more of a point to speak out, my views do not necessarily represent the views of the Science Olympiad Student Center (scioly.org). These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone.
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Re: Politics

Post by sneepity » June 2nd, 2020, 8:27 am

I agree wholeheartedly with what East said- "it's sad that people are at the point of rioting, but people need to stop dying at the hands of officers and a corrupt system that supports them". I don't really know the death toll of the protests- I believe it is 9? It seems ironic for people to die AS they protest against the death of someone. Oh, and the burning of the building in MN, that was really unsessacry. There's a limit to everything, and looting shops and etc (which puts innocent people who own these shops at a loss), is not justified. It's making NY less safe and people in my area are concerned about safety. True, protests are needed- but protests that endanger more people? Not good.
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Re: Politics

Post by nateDC » June 2nd, 2020, 8:41 am

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 7:16 am
Booknerd wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 6:11 pm
raytay wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 4:08 pm
I want to move to Canada. The World War II Memorial and Lincoln Memorial were both vandalized during protests. It makes me sick
I feel like this has become less about the George Floyd incident, and more about people trying to assert dominance over the government. People are going way too far. If people truly wanted to represent George Floyd, it wouldn't mean having to loot every single store in sight and burning police cars. People are threatening the well-being of others (and themselves) by ignoring safety measures (remember Corona? It's still here) and harming people who are not Derek Chauvin. If we've learned anything from this country's history, it's that violence doesn't solve anything. Remember MLK? He used peace, not violence. People keep on associating an individual with a group, and causing trouble to a group of people who have not done anything wrong. Police officers in Seattle are under attack when they had no relationship or involvement in what Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis did. If people were really mad at the incident, they shouldn't be blaming officers who didn't do anything. Minneapolis is not NYC, Chicago, Seattle, or any other city. Nor is Derek Chauvin that friendly police officer who has devoted their lives to protect you. Please, stop.

I think that human beings should learn from past mistakes. What I think is one of the biggest mistakes a person can ever make is to repeat a mistake and never learn from it. We should learn from history (schools teach history class for a reason), not repeat it. We've realized that violence today will only lead to consequences tomorrow. And now, when the country is more fragile than ever before, it does not help to be wrecking stores and hurting law enforcement. People are very unstable: financially, physically, and mentally, after the rough few months we've had. Seeing what happened to George Floyd is very disturbing to see, but we shouldn't go about vandalizing because of it. If we truly cared, we wouldn't be causing more trouble. It doesn't help anyone that rioters call themselves protesters. Why are we fighting instead of helping? There's no point in causing hurt when we can help the people around us.

There's a difference between a protest and a riot. A difference that people aren't seeing. Please, have some good morals. If this is what the 21st century is all about, I don't want to live in it anymore.

With a global pandemic sweeping the country, and riots on every street, we human beings are going to be the end of ourselves if we don't stop ourselves now. If we truly want to make this world a better place, we shouldn't be blaming people who cause problems, but recognizing those who try to solve them.

The last thing any human being could do during this time is help, not hurt. Please.

[end of Booknerd's speech]
I will not fault you because I know firsthand that education in middle school and high school can be heavily slanted. But while MLK advocated peace, there were a lot of violent riots. And we remember the protagonists as the rioters, not those fighting against them. The Stonewall riots directly led to greater LGBTQ rights. We now remember those rioters as protagonists too. It is sad that things have to come to violence rather than those in leadership doing their jobs, but riots have and will continue to be vehicles of progress when all else fails.

TL;DR don't say, "it's sad that people are dying, but please don't riot". Rather, "it's sad that people are at the point of rioting, but people need to stop dying at the hands of officers and a corrupt system that supports them".

EDIT: I would like to clarify that while I feel very strongly about this topic and am making it more of a point to speak out, my views do not necessarily represent the views of the Science Olympiad Student Center (scioly.org). These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone.
I would however like to point out that people's first amendment rights last only as long as they protest peacefully. As soon as it turns violent, those rights of the offenders cease to exist, until the violence stops. (I just took a Constitution class so...) This means that I only really care what the protesters have to say if they do it in a peaceful, calm way. Also, I do believe that the statement: "it's sad that people are dying, but please don't riot" is a perfectly reasonable statement about this matter, when COMBINED with the other statement East put out. One more thing, we have to separate the "protesters" from the "looters". The protesters are the ones kneeling down and holding signs, the looters are the ones rioting and creating havoc.
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Re: Politics

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » June 2nd, 2020, 8:49 am

nateDC wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 8:41 am
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
June 2nd, 2020, 7:16 am
Booknerd wrote:
June 1st, 2020, 6:11 pm


I feel like this has become less about the George Floyd incident, and more about people trying to assert dominance over the government. People are going way too far. If people truly wanted to represent George Floyd, it wouldn't mean having to loot every single store in sight and burning police cars. People are threatening the well-being of others (and themselves) by ignoring safety measures (remember Corona? It's still here) and harming people who are not Derek Chauvin. If we've learned anything from this country's history, it's that violence doesn't solve anything. Remember MLK? He used peace, not violence. People keep on associating an individual with a group, and causing trouble to a group of people who have not done anything wrong. Police officers in Seattle are under attack when they had no relationship or involvement in what Derek Chauvin in Minneapolis did. If people were really mad at the incident, they shouldn't be blaming officers who didn't do anything. Minneapolis is not NYC, Chicago, Seattle, or any other city. Nor is Derek Chauvin that friendly police officer who has devoted their lives to protect you. Please, stop.

I think that human beings should learn from past mistakes. What I think is one of the biggest mistakes a person can ever make is to repeat a mistake and never learn from it. We should learn from history (schools teach history class for a reason), not repeat it. We've realized that violence today will only lead to consequences tomorrow. And now, when the country is more fragile than ever before, it does not help to be wrecking stores and hurting law enforcement. People are very unstable: financially, physically, and mentally, after the rough few months we've had. Seeing what happened to George Floyd is very disturbing to see, but we shouldn't go about vandalizing because of it. If we truly cared, we wouldn't be causing more trouble. It doesn't help anyone that rioters call themselves protesters. Why are we fighting instead of helping? There's no point in causing hurt when we can help the people around us.

There's a difference between a protest and a riot. A difference that people aren't seeing. Please, have some good morals. If this is what the 21st century is all about, I don't want to live in it anymore.

With a global pandemic sweeping the country, and riots on every street, we human beings are going to be the end of ourselves if we don't stop ourselves now. If we truly want to make this world a better place, we shouldn't be blaming people who cause problems, but recognizing those who try to solve them.

The last thing any human being could do during this time is help, not hurt. Please.

[end of Booknerd's speech]
I will not fault you because I know firsthand that education in middle school and high school can be heavily slanted. But while MLK advocated peace, there were a lot of violent riots. And we remember the protagonists as the rioters, not those fighting against them. The Stonewall riots directly led to greater LGBTQ rights. We now remember those rioters as protagonists too. It is sad that things have to come to violence rather than those in leadership doing their jobs, but riots have and will continue to be vehicles of progress when all else fails.

TL;DR don't say, "it's sad that people are dying, but please don't riot". Rather, "it's sad that people are at the point of rioting, but people need to stop dying at the hands of officers and a corrupt system that supports them".

EDIT: I would like to clarify that while I feel very strongly about this topic and am making it more of a point to speak out, my views do not necessarily represent the views of the Science Olympiad Student Center (scioly.org). These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone.
I would however like to point out that people's first amendment rights last only as long as they protest peacefully. As soon as it turns violent, those rights of the offenders cease to exist, until the violence stops. (I just took a Constitution class so...) This means that I only really care what the protesters have to say if they do it in a peaceful, calm way. Also, I do believe that the statement: "it's sad that people are dying, but please don't riot" is a perfectly reasonable statement about this matter, when COMBINED with the other statement East put out. One more thing, we have to separate the "protesters" from the "looters". The protesters are the ones kneeling down and holding signs, the looters are the ones rioting and creating havoc.
How would you respond to the many instances where a peaceful protest has turned violent because police respond using force?
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Re: Politics

Post by JoeyC » June 2nd, 2020, 9:08 am

First amendment rights are vague at best; while they should theoretically hold weight in courts and in government policy, it's all too easy to bend them this way or that - especially given that riots in the past have been somewhat justified under it in the eyes of many Americans (e.g. Boston Massacre and Tea Party, though both very possibly being in violation of the modern definition of the rights of a people, are held to moderate, if not high, respect in the American culture). These riots could easily be legally backed depending on which judge was presiding over court.

That being said, are the riots justified even if the law makes leeway for it?

First of all, the reason the riots are occurring isn't just George Floyd's death - that's just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's the stress and perceived threats from the constant poverty, discrimination, and danger that African Americans experience in general that has built up for so long. These riots are the result of years, decades, even centuries of stress caused by race-based division of social classes. (which still persists to this day, even if the government no longer attempts to enforce said race-based division as much as in the past). Don't forget the additional stress of Covid-19 and the economics slump on these people.
These riots protest against generations of injustice, and, given the nature of humans, I don't really see an obvious solution in which violent riots don't occur when people push against injustice - there is no obvious peaceful solution for them to take, so the obvious violent one will be taken by many.
I am unsure of what these riots will do for the cause of racial equality, but given the circumstances and lack of better options, I cannot fault the rioters for their actions. Again, they're only human.

On the other hand, these riots definitely hurt people, cause turmoil, possibly spread Coronavirus, and could cause people's opinions of racial equality to go down. The cons of these riots are obvious enough, I feel I don't really need to point them all out.

In the end, I feel that these riots were inevitable in current circumstances after Floyd's death, and that such violence will always occur when one weaker group pursues something another stronger group vehemently wishes to deny it. Of course, that doesn't make it justified. The history books will. considering that most history books will usually characterize any attempt for equality as positive due to a slight, but noticeable left bias
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