How to get to Nationals and beat Troy

[Taro]

Arcadia is another SoCal school strong in Science Olympiad and Science Bowl, but they're also what we call a "glass cannon". They're 4000-5000 kids big, so they have enough manpower.Still, their performance fluctuates a lot with who is currently on the team etc. You don't want this. You want your team to either improve every year or remain roughly the same.

hmMM

Oof, I must have been thinking of Carmel HS IN. Either that, or I've listened too much to various Asian parents complain about overpopulation in Arcadia :p

mm that's some tea right there

[Crimesolver]

Our team made it to SoCal state competition and we place 16th. Through my judgement of previous invitationals, we should be around 7th at states. Any advice to get even better so that we can make it to nationals?

[primitivepolonium]

Our team made it to SoCal state competition and we place 16th. Through my judgement of previous invitationals, we should be around 7th at states. Any advice to get even better so that we can make it to nationals?

Good job on getting to States! Unfortunately, without more info, we really can't give that much advice.

Some questions to ask yourself:
Why is there a discrepancy between your invites performance and your States performance? Some invites are less competitive, so that could inflate your overall score, but if the invites you're comparing to are of similar competitiveness..Are your builds tanking? Is there a "problem" event acting up? Was your invitational performance consistently ~7, or did it fluctuate? You can pick out trends in your performance and find places for specific improvement.

Problem events (especially if plural "events") can really tank you, so diagnosing them is important. Using a personal example: for my school in 2015, anatomy and physiology was a "problem event". Even if we placed overall really well at a prestigious invite, we placed worse relatively in A&P than almost everything else. Our coach ended up having a rotating cast for A&P until he found a satisfactory arrangement, and then they medalled at nats. That was a good ending, but the alternative would have been a tanked event. And this applies for all schools. You'll sometimes see schools with great placing...and then a low double-digits that drags them down an overall rank.

It's also worth examining team morale and performance throughout the semester. Are you steadily improving throughout the season? Or are you losing steam after the first few invites?

[Crimesolver]

Good job on getting to States! Unfortunately, without more info, we really can't give that much advice.

Some questions to ask yourself:
Why is there a discrepancy between your invites performance and your States performance? Some invites are less competitive, so that could inflate your overall score, but if the invites you're comparing to are of similar competitiveness..Are your builds tanking? Is there a "problem" event acting up? Was your invitational performance consistently ~7, or did it fluctuate? You can pick out trends in your performance and find places for specific improvement.

Problem events (especially if plural "events") can really tank you, so diagnosing them is important. Using a personal example: for my school in 2015, anatomy and physiology was a "problem event". Even if we placed overall really well at a prestigious invite, we placed worse relatively in A&P than almost everything else. Our coach ended up having a rotating cast for A&P until he found a satisfactory arrangement, and then they medalled at nats. And this applies for all schools. You'll sometimes see schools with great placing...and then a low double-digits that drags them down a rank.

It's also worth examining team morale and performance throughout the semester. Are you steadily improving throughout the season? Or are you losing steam after the first few invites?

I should have worded it better, but SoCal didn't have their state competition yet. We got 16th place last year, and my assumption of being in 7th place is coming from this years season. Sorry for the confusion, but I will totally keep these questions in mind!

[drcubbin]

A less gloomy attitude couldn't hurt.

Agreed, and Jn366435 should try reading about those who have excelled in spite of seemingly insurmountable odds. Start with Jim Thorpe, or so many of our famous scientists, or the Amazin' 69' Mets. While in private practice, I firmly believed, "What the mind believes, the mind achieves". Reading a few books on positive motivation wouldn't hurt as well. The science comes much easier when you believe you can learn it!

[chinesesushi]

I am a Troy alum. Troy's success comes from their dedication to Science Olympiad. Additionally, people like to and will work hard to win. Put those two together and you have an unbeatable competitor at the States level, as Troy's reputation as a winner precedes itself.

Several people have commented how a rapidly rising school could beat Troy. I don't think that's true. Troy, in order to lose SoCal States, would need to beat itself. So, it's not that an exceptionally good school could beat Troy, but specifically an exceptionally good school could beat an exceptionally bad Troy.

Several people have commented how Troy is not as dominant as other schools in their States. SoCal is probably a larger region in terms of population than either Solon's or Harriton's, which means the competition in SoCal is probably at a higher level than in other States. The fact that Troy is able to net 1st place after 1st place is clearly not a reflection of their weakness at States, but the strength of the SoCal region in general. I say "clearly" because of Troy's success at Nationals. If the 2nd place school at SoCal States also went to Nationals, I would think that they would, at minimum, get top 10. Comparing the top 10 schools between SoCal and any other States shows you that the quality of competition in SoCal is much higher (which paradoxically improves Troy as well).

To paint a picture of Troy's dominance at the States level, let me tell you my personal experience at States, representing Troy. At one States award ceremony, we started with Anatomy and Physiology. The awards go 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st. Troy gets 1st. Then, it's Air Trajectory. Troy gets 1st. Then, it's Chem Lab. Troy gets 2nd. Schools are in awe, cheering, whooping and hollering. The point of the story is that Troy not only expects itself to win, but everyone expects Troy to win. It comes as a shock if Troy doesn't take the top place or *gasp* isn't in the top 6 at all. The fact that Troy is able to handle this pressure shows the extraordinary discipline of the team year-over-year as well as the strength of the system they have in place.

How do you beat Troy? From what I've said, it sounds impossible. However, it of course is possible as Troy clearly does not display an equivalent dominance at the Nationals level (still good though ).

The first is to work more on yourself than on beating others. Think about it. Troy, taking 1st at States year after year, has essentially no way to compete with others in the sense that in any given event, they are likely better. How do they maintain this level? The answer is they focus on improving their own performance via objective measures, rather than subjective ones such as rankings at competitions.

The second is to focus on the events you're not so good at. There are some events that you just won't win, whether it's against Troy or other top-performing schools at States. However, you still have to make an effort, because from a pure numerical standpoint if you don't do an event or try very little, you've already lost. Let's say Troy's average score at States is 100. If a school places 30th in 3 events, the lowest score they could get next is 110, even if they get 1st in all other events. Troy does a very good job of making sure that, even in the events they don't place (which are very, very few at States), they try their best. This attitude is required for success at States and Nationals.

The third is to focus on building a culture. For example, at MIT invites 2015, Troy got 3rd. They ended up winning Nationals. What changed? For Troy, nothing changed. The team members had the discipline to work on themselves, the trust in the system to drive success, and the belief that they had teammates that were doing the same. For the Science Olympiad team at Troy, to get on the team means success later in life, whether immediately after (college) or even after college.

I would like to end with a personal account of my experience being involved with the team. Practice was 3 times a week, after school. School was from 7AM-3PM, and practice was usually 2 hours long until 5PM. The "season" started for us from December to May. The amount of time dedicated to practice, well you do the math. This doesn't count the invitationals and competitions that we did as well. The thing is, no one felt like they were forced to be at practice. Sure, if you didn't practice and your event scores ended up slipping, you were in danger of being replaced. However, that was something we all knew was a possibility. We enjoyed being at practice, which felt more like hanging out with friends than hardcore studying. Above all, Troy's 2nd team, which often is hidden from the public because of the success of the 1st team, is the reason for Troy's success. We essentially had the knowledge of 30 people stuffed into 15 people that officially competed in tournaments. But if schools were allowed more than 1 team, I can guarantee that Troy's second team would not place any lower than top 10 at States. They are responsible for being the gatekeeper into the 1st team, for being the driving force for the 1st team despite weaker outside competition, and for being strong contributors to the culture of the team.

[Efesa]

I am a Troy alum. Troy's success comes from their dedication to Science Olympiad. Additionally, people like to and will work hard to win. Put those two together and you have an unbeatable competitor at the States level, as Troy's reputation as a winner precedes itself.

Several people have commented how a rapidly rising school could beat Troy. I don't think that's true. Troy, in order to lose SoCal States, would need to beat itself. So, it's not that an exceptionally good school could beat Troy, but specifically an exceptionally good school could beat an exceptionally bad Troy.

Several people have commented how Troy is not as dominant as other schools in their States. SoCal is probably a larger region in terms of population than either Solon's or Harriton's, which means the competition in SoCal is probably at a higher level than in other States. The fact that Troy is able to net 1st place after 1st place is clearly not a reflection of their weakness at States, but the strength of the SoCal region in general. I say "clearly" because of Troy's success at Nationals. If the 2nd place school at SoCal States also went to Nationals, I would think that they would, at minimum, get top 10. Comparing the top 10 schools between SoCal and any other States shows you that the quality of competition in SoCal is much higher (which paradoxically improves Troy as well).

To paint a picture of Troy's dominance at the States level, let me tell you my personal experience at States, representing Troy. At one States award ceremony, we started with Anatomy and Physiology. The awards go 6th, 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 1st. Troy gets 1st. Then, it's Air Trajectory. Troy gets 1st. Then, it's Chem Lab. Troy gets 2nd. Schools are in awe, cheering, whooping and hollering. The point of the story is that Troy not only expects itself to win, but everyone expects Troy to win. It comes as a shock if Troy doesn't take the top place or *gasp* isn't in the top 6 at all. The fact that Troy is able to handle this pressure shows the extraordinary discipline of the team year-over-year as well as the strength of the system they have in place.

How do you beat Troy? From what I've said, it sounds impossible. However, it of course is possible as Troy clearly does not display an equivalent dominance at the Nationals level (still good though ).

The first is to work more on yourself than on beating others. Think about it. Troy, taking 1st at States year after year, has essentially no way to compete with others in the sense that in any given event, they are likely better. How do they maintain this level? The answer is they focus on improving their own performance via objective measures, rather than subjective ones such as rankings at competitions.

The second is to focus on the events you're not so good at. There are some events that you just won't win, whether it's against Troy or other top-performing schools at States. However, you still have to make an effort, because from a pure numerical standpoint if you don't do an event or try very little, you've already lost. Let's say Troy's average score at States is 100. If a school places 30th in 3 events, the lowest score they could get next is 110, even if they get 1st in all other events. Troy does a very good job of making sure that, even in the events they don't place (which are very, very few at States), they try their best. This attitude is required for success at States and Nationals.

The third is to focus on building a culture. For example, at MIT invites 2015, Troy got 3rd. They ended up winning Nationals. What changed? For Troy, nothing changed. The team members had the discipline to work on themselves, the trust in the system to drive success, and the belief that they had teammates that were doing the same. For the Science Olympiad team at Troy, to get on the team means success later in life, whether immediately after (college) or even after college.

I would like to end with a personal account of my experience being involved with the team. Practice was 3 times a week, after school. School was from 7AM-3PM, and practice was usually 2 hours long until 5PM. The "season" started for us from December to May. The amount of time dedicated to practice, well you do the math. This doesn't count the invitationals and competitions that we did as well. The thing is, no one felt like they were forced to be at practice. Sure, if you didn't practice and your event scores ended up slipping, you were in danger of being replaced. However, that was something we all knew was a possibility. We enjoyed being at practice, which felt more like hanging out with friends than hardcore studying. Above all, Troy's 2nd team, which often is hidden from the public because of the success of the 1st team, is the reason for Troy's success. We essentially had the knowledge of 30 people stuffed into 15 people that officially competed in tournaments. But if schools were allowed more than 1 team, I can guarantee that Troy's second team would not place any lower than top 10 at States. They are responsible for being the gatekeeper into the 1st team, for being the driving force for the 1st team despite weaker outside competition, and for being strong contributors to the culture of the team.

I live in the same city as Troy, and I know that a lot of students from schools like Kraemer and JT feed into this school because of their SO program.

[sneepity]

[cut out for brevity]

I live in the same city as Troy, and I know that a lot of students from schools like Kraemer and JT feed into this school because of their SO program.

"Feed" is a little misleading, as the term is usually used to describe a middle school where a significant portion of graduating students are enrolled at that high school, usually because they are in the same district.

Troy's only feeder school (that I know of) is Ladera Vista, which doesn't require them to be in the Troy Tech program, though they can still do it if they wish. I can't speak for JT, but Kraemer, my old middle school, and various other middle schools have admins that actively try to prevent students from transferring out of their district to Troy(and that's a rant for another day).

Only a handful of students from each middle school usually choose to go (the entrance exam is relatively easy, so most who take it get in), but Troy pulls students from many different middle schools, most of whom are interested in what it has to offer academically. This gives Troy a fairly large pool of students who are to some degree STEM-oriented and self-motivated, combined with the reputation of the SciOly team that draws students interested in SciOly.

Troy has amazing coaches that built the program into what it is today, but also, at the end of the day, no one can build or learn your event for you. Troy SciOly is extremely hands-off and relies on students being self-motivated (and I know this won't work for every team). There's no magic secret to doing well except putting in the time and effort and working efficiently.

Standard myth debunking that yes, Troy is actually a public school, and no, we don't have SciOly as a class. Also, the hard part isn't getting Troy to let you in, it's getting your own district to let you out.

EDIT: phrasing

[EastStroudsburg13]

chinesesushi's post is incredible insight into what makes a program as strong as Troy's. However, I do want to push back ever so slightly on one thing.

Several people have commented how Troy is not as dominant as other schools in their States. SoCal is probably a larger region in terms of population than either Solon's or Harriton's, which means the competition in SoCal is probably at a higher level than in other States. The fact that Troy is able to net 1st place after 1st place is clearly not a reflection of their weakness at States, but the strength of the SoCal region in general. I say "clearly" because of Troy's success at Nationals. If the 2nd place school at SoCal States also went to Nationals, I would think that they would, at minimum, get top 10. Comparing the top 10 schools between SoCal and any other States shows you that the quality of competition in SoCal is much higher (which paradoxically improves Troy as well).

Keep in mind most of this thread was during the 2018-2019 season. While Troy was coming off of a 75-point performance in 2018, they had been above the 100-point mark both of the previous two seasons. At the time, it was fair to wonder if Troy was using states as a means to figure things out, considering what people's expectations were. Now that Troy has two consecutive 75-point showings under their belts, I don't think there's been that much chatter about Troy's vulnerability at states.

Also, 2019 saw the depth of elite schools at nationals be larger than ever. When you consider that the 119-point gap between Troy and the nearest team at states was equal to the gap between Troy and 13th-placed Enloe at nationals, I think there's an indication that competition among the best states is roughly even. I think this actually makes Troy's dominance more impressive, because they're not really being threatened at the state level. All of their motivation is coming from within to build towards nationals.

[EwwPhysics]

chinesesushi's post is incredible insight into what makes a program as strong as Troy's. However, I do want to push back ever so slightly on one thing.

Several people have commented how Troy is not as dominant as other schools in their States. SoCal is probably a larger region in terms of population than either Solon's or Harriton's, which means the competition in SoCal is probably at a higher level than in other States. The fact that Troy is able to net 1st place after 1st place is clearly not a reflection of their weakness at States, but the strength of the SoCal region in general. I say "clearly" because of Troy's success at Nationals. If the 2nd place school at SoCal States also went to Nationals, I would think that they would, at minimum, get top 10. Comparing the top 10 schools between SoCal and any other States shows you that the quality of competition in SoCal is much higher (which paradoxically improves Troy as well).

Keep in mind most of this thread was during the 2018-2019 season. While Troy was coming off of a 75-point performance in 2018, they had been above the 100-point mark both of the previous two seasons. At the time, it was fair to wonder if Troy was using states as a means to figure things out, considering what people's expectations were. Now that Troy has two consecutive 75-point showings under their belts, I don't think there's been that much chatter about Troy's vulnerability at states.

Also, 2019 saw the depth of elite schools at nationals be larger than ever. When you consider that the 119-point gap between Troy and the nearest team at states was equal to the gap between Troy and 13th-placed Enloe at nationals, I think there's an indication that competition among the best states is roughly even. I think this actually makes Troy's dominance more impressive, because they're not really being threatened at the state level. All of their motivation is coming from within to build towards nationals.

Yeah, last year Harriton only won states by about 20 points and Solon won by 10 (tbf, mason got 4th at nats). I personally don't believe that Canyon Crest would place extremely well at nationals (probably somewhere from 10th to 15th), but we'll see how well they do at bearso!