Pennsylvania 2021

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sciolyperson1
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by sciolyperson1 » January 3rd, 2021, 10:06 am

Top teams (based on invy results) are as follows:
Lower Merion High School
Cumberland Valley High School
Harriton High School
Bayard Rustin High School
Parkland High School
Shady Side Academy
Athens Area High School
Garnet Valley High School
State College Area High School
North Penn High School

This is based off of the School Rankings we put together.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by Unome » January 4th, 2021, 6:44 am

nendawen wrote:
January 3rd, 2021, 7:55 am
I am not sure that big tournaments are all that great. Although it it wonderful this year to do this, having 200 teams compete gives the top 10 teams something to thump their chest about but makes the bottom half teams not feel so great.

The way I view this organization is a cross between you don’t get a award for showing up but we still want you to feel some success to keep you moving along.

If the Top 50 teams in the country just keep pounding everyone else who is trying their best to improve or this year just remain engaged we are going to lose students and teams.

Not every time has the financial resources, community support, parental support, or enough engaged academically strong students to compete with the top.

Let’s be real, there is problem in the organization when the same teams make it to nationals every year and the same teams win nationals every year.

If this happened in sports to this extent new rules would be put in place to level the playing field.

PIAA is constantly fiddling with the rules to prevent kids from jumping districts to prevent the same team from winning the state title each year. I am not advocating for that but

I think the National organization organization knows this. To sustain the organization financially they need to add teams or charge more otherwise they can’t pay for the National office staff. This is basic economics

To keep teams engaged small tournaments where more teams get medals in events will keep students engaged and moving forward.
Normally, of course, small tournaments do exist, and are (were - I'd expect several years of recovery) beginning to become more abundant.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » January 4th, 2021, 7:11 am

nendawen wrote:
January 3rd, 2021, 7:55 am
I am not sure that big tournaments are all that great. Although it it wonderful this year to do this, having 200 teams compete gives the top 10 teams something to thump their chest about but makes the bottom half teams not feel so great.

The way I view this organization is a cross between you don’t get a award for showing up but we still want you to feel some success to keep you moving along.

If the Top 50 teams in the country just keep pounding everyone else who is trying their best to improve or this year just remain engaged we are going to lose students and teams.

Not every time has the financial resources, community support, parental support, or enough engaged academically strong students to compete with the top.

Let’s be real, there is problem in the organization when the same teams make it to nationals every year and the same teams win nationals every year.

If this happened in sports to this extent new rules would be put in place to level the playing field.

PIAA is constantly fiddling with the rules to prevent kids from jumping districts to prevent the same team from winning the state title each year. I am not advocating for that but

I think the National organization organization knows this. To sustain the organization financially they need to add teams or charge more otherwise they can’t pay for the National office staff. This is basic economics

To keep teams engaged small tournaments where more teams get medals in events will keep students engaged and moving forward.
I think everything you posit here is 100% true and valid. At least for Rustin, the 125 teams are split into two divisions, with only 42 teams in the lower division, giving them a better chance to compete. But overall there definitely is a problem where, at least on a national scale, there is only a single competition "class".

There are some sports where the same schools do dominate year in and year out, but at least most sports are divided by classes, so the effect is somewhat muted. We also don't often see national-scale high school sports tournaments, so it's possible that if that were the case, we would see some of the same problems pop up.

Time will tell what the national organization can actually do about it. I fear that their influence can only go so far, as state orgs tend to have all of the power when it comes to organizing competition, so on a national scale the ability to enact change is unfortunately hindered. But providing competition opportunities for small and low-income schools certainly should be one of NSO's top priorities right now.
Last edited by EastStroudsburg13 on January 4th, 2021, 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by knightmoves » January 4th, 2021, 1:54 pm

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
January 4th, 2021, 7:11 am
But providing competition opportunities for small and low-income schools certainly should be one of NSO's top priorities right now.
One of the nice things about remote is that it gives teams who can't afford to travel the opportunity to compete in some competitions with high-quality tests. Local competitions aimed at small / new / etc. teams often also have bad tests and bad judging, because the people running the events don't have as much experience as those you get at "better" competitions.

But, as has been said, it's hard to feel enthusiastic about placing 180th out of 230 in your event, even if that's actually a good score for your team, so ranking within multiple divisions is a good thing to spread some bling around and encourage people. It's always nice to have the overall placings as well - if your small school has done well at a couple of low-quality invitationals, it's easy to think that you're great, and then you show up at regionals and get blown out of the water.

(And forget about nationals. Small teams and low-income schools aren't looking at going to nats - they can't afford it, even if they'd qualify. Multiple divisions at state, so that these teams have a chance of coming home from state with a medal is a good thing.)

There's a sweet spot for medals and trophies - if everyone on your team comes home with 3 or 4 medals because the competition has been divided into so many sub-classes, then the medals don't feel real. But if your team is medaling in some events but not all of them, it keeps things interesting. You get enough reward for the events that you put more effort in to to encourage you, without getting the pat on the head for showing up.

I think I agree with East's suggestion that in a normal year, small tournaments are better than a big tournament with too many divisons - it's easier to be excited about placing well at the Small-School invitational than in Division 4 at the Massive Tournament - with the caveat about bad tests and bad judges that I started with.

In a similar vein, IL is running all of its regionals simultaneously, as Mini-SO with the same tests. They're ranking per-region for the purposes of medals and state bids, but I hope they publish the combined results as well, because it would be interesting.
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sciolyperson1
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by sciolyperson1 » January 5th, 2021, 5:28 am

With so many states having some sort of master regional, I really hope they do not rank with combined teams. It really defeats the whole purpose of combining competitions.

Although it may be interesting to see (and add to our School Rankings sheet) at the end of the day it's a regional competition (and not some sort of invy)
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MIT: LMMM - 1st '21, DigiStruc - 2nd '21, Gravity - 1st '20
PUSO: PPP - 1st '20, WIDI -1st '20

Team:
Nats - 3rd '18, '19
MIT - 1st '21, 3rd '20

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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » January 5th, 2021, 8:07 am

knightmoves wrote:
January 4th, 2021, 1:54 pm
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
January 4th, 2021, 7:11 am
But providing competition opportunities for small and low-income schools certainly should be one of NSO's top priorities right now.
(And forget about nationals. Small teams and low-income schools aren't looking at going to nats - they can't afford it, even if they'd qualify. Multiple divisions at state, so that these teams have a chance of coming home from state with a medal is a good thing.)
I mean... the beauty of online competitions is that affordability goes way up. ;)

That is not to say that in-person opportunities are less valuable; to the contrary. I think every state large enough to sustain it should have a small school/low-income school division. But online formats can still be used in ways to provide something that would otherwise be impossible.
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by MorningCoffee » January 6th, 2021, 4:19 pm

The Rustin Invy starts tomorrow! Good luck to all who are competing :D!
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by sciolyperson1 » January 6th, 2021, 4:56 pm

MorningCoffee wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 4:19 pm
The Rustin Invy starts tomorrow! Good luck to all who are competing :D!
Started today already
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'21: Gravity - Boomi - WICI - PPP - Cybersec

BEARSO: Gravity - 1st '21
MIT: LMMM - 1st '21, DigiStruc - 2nd '21, Gravity - 1st '20
PUSO: PPP - 1st '20, WIDI -1st '20

Team:
Nats - 3rd '18, '19
MIT - 1st '21, 3rd '20

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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by MorningCoffee » January 6th, 2021, 5:09 pm

sciolyperson1 wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 4:56 pm
MorningCoffee wrote:
January 6th, 2021, 4:19 pm
The Rustin Invy starts tomorrow! Good luck to all who are competing :D!
Started today already
:oops: i don't have any events until tomorrow so that probably ruined my schedule

anyway, good luck everyone, even if you already started!
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Re: Pennsylvania 2021

Post by EwwPhysics » January 16th, 2021, 6:34 pm

Thoughts on PA teams at rustin (based on superscore):
  • Springhouse was above all the other PA teams by a decent amount (260 vs 384 points)
  • I was surprised about how well Mountain View did, they beat Eagle View by a significant amount (last year, Eagle View was slightly better than them)
  • I don't really know how to interpret SSA's result, especially since they didn't compete at Rustin last year. Seems to be a relatively standard year for them? I don't know
  • Harlan Rowe... probably hit hard by the lack of builds, and I think they may have lost a lot of 9th graders (don't quote me on this). Eagle View was right behind them so it'll be interesting to see if they remain this close as the season progresses.
  • Strath Haven and Bala Cynwyd were about 100 points behind eagle view/harlan rowe, with Strath Haven beating Bala by about 50 points. To be honest both of these schools did better than I expected them to, good job to them :)
  • Overall, it's looking like states is going to be very exciting this year in division b! I wonder if mountain view will make nats 👀
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